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What sort of Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations are there?
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Pittsburgh
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Wed, May 24, 2006 - 8:48 PMthere's the aa.... -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Wed, May 24, 2006 - 9:11 PMThere is also "Hawk and Jackal"
www.hawkandjackal.com
Part of Rosslyn Sanctuary that used to be an O.T.O. camp in Hayward. Rosslyn still exists to this day btw.
www.Rosslyn.org
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Wed, May 24, 2006 - 10:55 PMWhat is the deal with the A.'.A.'.? As I understand it from reading on the Internet, this is a magickal order that was started by Crowley (as opposed to being a restructured organization like the OTO)? I'm not really clear on it though. For a long time I was under the impression that the A.'.A.'. was the Inner Order of the OTO. -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Wed, May 24, 2006 - 11:21 PMThe majority of the material Crowely wrote was intended for the A.'.A.'. and not the OTO. The A.'.A.'. (of which there are currently a number of groups that call themselves such and I have no opinion on which ones are or are not valid) was an entirely secret society (insofar as members were not to know eachother) and at the same time little if any of the material was secret. At first glance it appears Crowley ripped off the G.'.D.'. styructure entirely but this is entirely superficial, it is extremely different. It is entirely centered on the learning and teaching of occult knowlege and practice, unlike the OTO which is a Thelemic fraternal Order which also deals with occult subjects.
Hawk & Jackal was founded by Charles Reece(Ebony Anpu) and is still active in the Bay Area, parts of the Pacific Northwest, and possibly a few other places. It's kind of like Thelemic witchcraft with a defiante Egyptian slant.
There is also the TOT or Temple of Thelema which I don't know a great deal about but is active in the Bay Area. The Order of Thelemic Knights which I don't know alot about either but I believe is supposed to be a kind of fraternal Order patterned after the Knights Templar. The Thelemic Order of the Golden Dawn in LA, the Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn in the Bay Area (and I believei n Seattle as well).
There are also a few groups which are debatably Thelemic such as the TOTO (Typhonian OTO of Kenneth Grant), the Horus-Maat Lodge (out of Ohio if I'm not mistaken), at least one group calling itself the EOD (Esoteric Order of Dagon), the Choronzon Club (which I dont think exists anymore), the Fraternitas Saturni in Germany (which is apparently very different from the original group calling itself by that name). Some might group the OTA along with these quasi-Thelemic groups as well I don't know enough to make that judgement)
There are also the Other groups calling themselves the OTO: The Swiss OTO, the Albion OTO, the Society OTO, and a few others.
If I'm not mistaken there is also a group calling itself the LIL (Lamp of the Invisible Light) which is an Order Crowley founded in Mexico before recieving the Book of the Law that has apparently resurfaced and adopted the New Aeon. I know very little about the group.
I doubt many of these groups have more than 100 members (the SOTO had 3 when they lost the lawsuit to the "caliphate" OTO) and how active they are may be questionable. Naturally this does not invalidate their work, the OTO under Crowley never had 100 people at one time nor did the A.'.A.'. as far as I'm aware.
If any staement I have made are incorrect please do correct them, I do not have experience with most of these groups. -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, May 25, 2006 - 12:40 AMThank you, that was very informative. I actually have a friend in the OSOGD. Is that Thelemic? I was under the impression it's more Pagan + GD. -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, May 25, 2006 - 7:26 AMI have been going to the occasional mass hosted by these guys. www.johannite.org/
It is gnostic not thelemic but I have to say there are TONS of crossovers. Four angels, banishing, wine, bread, invoking.... etc etc... I like it a lot altough the OTO mass is still my favorite.
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, May 25, 2006 - 5:38 PMI'm a member of OSOGD. It is a Thelemic organization. All of the GD rituals have been redacted with material from the Thelemic Holy Books. You can read these rituals here:
www.osogd.org/library.html -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Fri, May 26, 2006 - 8:08 AMNever trust anyone calling themselves A:.A:. that are organized with persons acting as a treasurer, secretary or ask for money etc, these are machinations for deception. A:. A:. is about self initiation and discipline with more emphasis on astral work than materialism. The OTO is based on materialism, they need your money and obedience in exchange for " illumination " via initiation.
Non OTO Thelemic organizations are sprouting up all over the place. I believe this is so because the OTO has proven to be such a let down on so many levels that it has inspired people to be more creative with current. -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, May 30, 2006 - 9:25 AMCrowley didn't seem to have a problem with the idea profiting off the OTO (though he didn't have a great deal of success in the matter).
It's obvious yoo don't know what's going on in the OTO if yor goingto make statements like 'The OTO is based on materialism, they need your money and obedience in exchange for " illumination " via initiation.' -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, June 1, 2006 - 9:41 AMOTO dues are more expensive than regular freemasonry. -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, June 1, 2006 - 1:15 PMI know, I'm a Mason as well as in the OTO. There's also a remarkable difference in the quality of the initiations. Have yoo been through any of the degrees of either? -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, June 1, 2006 - 4:22 PMYes I have. There is a certain hypocrisy within the OTO in this reguard. On their official website they claim not to make masons and that the organization is not masonic, yet they infringe upon Masonry not only in the simularity in ritual ( especially the 4* ) but also in adopting the regalia ( aprons in particular ) and certain symbols used in Masonic rites. The OTO was born from irregular " fringe " masonry, most Lodges don't recognize
the organization. The rites of Memphis and Misraim are the priciple progenators of the OTO. A look into the history of those rites will enlighten one into the scams that have been propagated by individuals fabricating rites and issueing patents in order to decieve good hearted individuals & make a buck. The OTO is of the same line. A rite with 96* is just plain ridiculous !!! The rite of Memphis alone has 5 grand councils to govern it ! Can you imagine memorizing all the passwords, grips and signs in order to attain the 93* ?!? Masonry was always the 3 symbolic degrees, all the " high grade " degrees are fabrications with pompus titles and jewels that appeal to persons with inflated egos. The so called Acient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry for example, is not Scottish in origin at all, it was fabricated in the U.S. !!! It's a bastard creation of the Rite of Perfection of 25*, yet another machination of the Jesuits. These " brothers " created it in order to usurp more power for themselves. The Grand Lodge of Scotland in the early 1800's was quite shocked when it recieved a circular by the A.A.S.R. from America declaring all these extra degrees and professing itself to be Scottish Masonry. The deception was remarkable in the face of propagating itself with success. The York rite on the other hand, demands of its members in the higher degrees to pledge themselves to christianity, which seems intolerable to the cosmopolitan nature of Freemasonry. Alright, I've babbled long enough, it's tea time.
M* H* B**** -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Fri, June 2, 2006 - 8:55 PMYeah and the Temple of Set originated within the Church of Satan. There's a pretty substantial difference wouldn't yoo say?
While there are undeniable similarities between the OTO degrees with those of Freemasonry and it's appendant degrees, by yor logic the Carpenter's Union (which charges more in dues than the OTO by a long shot) qualifies as clandestine Masonry.
The rituals may have similar formulae but are not the same rituals anymore than Liber Samekh is the same ritual as the SIRP. Furthermore, the quality of ritual in the OTO is significantly better than that of Masonry.
I suppose if yoo wanted, yoo could perform them with a few buddies in yor own home but that would require a great deal of effort and expense. Yes, expense! The OTO degrees are expensive because they require expensive and sometimes intricate props and sets. When paying for an OTO initiation, yor paying a less (sometimes a great deal less) than yoo would if yoo were to buy all the stuff yorself.
As far as dues go, I personally think they're lower than they should be. OTO dues are lower than a gym membership. Why pay to go to gym when yoo can climb stairs all yoo want in yor own apartment building? OTO dues are lower than the cost of going to the movies every weekend. OTO dues are less than most people spend on coffee.
Nobody's getting rich off of the OTO. Trust mee. It's a volunteer organization. And typically the people that work the hardest in the Order, which are closer to the top than they are to the bottom, are the people that get thanked the least. -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, July 13, 2006 - 7:54 AM" Furthermore, the quality of ritual in OTO is significantly better than that of Masonry. " Hmmm, that is debatable.
I think the preformance of initiations in Masonic Lodges is better than that of OTO. Too many times have I seen people bumbling through scripts at OTO initiations or only having done 2 or 3 run throughs before the actual thing, rarely have I experienced a camp, oasis or lodge having an initiation team that actually has it memorized.
Props and sets are not expensive to make, especially if people donate the time and materials to make them. OTO dues use to be a lot lower and if they actually stand behind " every man and woman has an undefeasable right to the first 3 degrees " they should be more affordable or better yet - FREE !
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, July 13, 2006 - 9:38 PM93!
Oh yeah. There was a big blow-out over me with Cornholio years back with regards to the "every man and woman has an undefeasable right to the first 3 degrees".
I Won and he was repremanded. :-)
But I do agree on the memorization the ritual. The problem with memorizing the Initiation rituals is that the people are not given the scripts until shortly before the rite and then they are told that they cannot take them home. Frankly I don't think it matters anymore since the rites are easily found on the Internet in various places and forms. But then again, that's just my opinion and my deduction from observation.
93 93/93 -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Wed, July 19, 2006 - 6:32 AMHi Lashtal and Squid,
Lashtal: A way to solve the problem with the script issue is to visit another OTO body that has initiations happening on a regular basis. This would allow somewhat a familiarity with the rituals. I think the first 3 initiations are pretty simple. I could memorize it by watching it.
Squid: you state
"Yoo think they should be free? Fine but I'll remind yoo that the Masonic degrees aren't free. And actually, yor quite mistaken if yoo think the props in the OTO rituals are cheap. If one were to perform the Second degree alone and the prce was divided evenly between the officers, it would easily cost $150+ apiece if not more. That's significantly more than the current OTO fees. How would yoo have an OTO body pay it's rent if it doesn't charge dues or fees?
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The rent and overhead of a body is purely subjective to the amount of overhead is due monthly. Some bodies payout nothing. While others pay out a small fee, and others payout huge amounts of money.
For a while the body I am in didn't pay rent at all. We found a building that was a community center and was able to use it free. Later we ended up getting a temple not on a permanent 24/7 situation. for 8 to 10 days a month for about 100 dollars. Overhead being approximately 10 dollars each day. Then again theres the niceities of the society of having good wine and fresh cakes and candles ready for masses on the occassion fresh roses as well. Since it doesn't say in the mass the roses need to be real or the candles need to be lit. I am sure people could even cut corners even more. Thats not my focus really. I know some bodies payout huge amounts of money. Sometimes those bodies have such a headcount that notes its success by its growth, its income and its support by the brethren.
I think dues are necessary for overhead. The problem with dues paying societies and tithing societies now a days is theres a noticable change in the income generated. Fundraising may be a better direction to make an income altogether. -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, July 20, 2006 - 8:49 AMWhen there is a WILL there is a way ! -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, July 20, 2006 - 10:57 AMwhere there is a WILL there is a soul.... -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, July 20, 2006 - 11:35 AMOne wills is greater than the other in the end :) -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, July 20, 2006 - 11:45 AMwhat "end" ? :)
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Fri, July 14, 2006 - 12:31 AMWell then yoo obviously haven't been in the OTO for quite some time because official USGL policy states that all initiations are to be memorized and NOT to be read (except in specific parts where the script calls for something to be read). Officers are allowed to take home scripts but they are forbidden from copying them. In my LB this was an unwritten policy before the USGL ever mandated it. Furthermore, the rituals themselves are far more jolly and beautiful than the Masonic degrees.
Yoo think they should be free? Fine but I'll remind yoo that the Masonic degrees aren't free. And actually, yor quite mistaken if yoo think the props in the OTO rituals are cheap. If one were to perform the Second degree alone and the prce was divided evenly between the officers, it would easily cost $150+ apiece if not more. That's significantly more than the current OTO fees. How would yoo have an OTO body pay it's rent if it doesn't charge dues or fees?
As far as the "indefeasable right to the Third Degree" is concerned, it may not be a popular opinion but I think the OTO should remove that from the Constitution entirely. -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Sat, July 15, 2006 - 9:28 AMMasonic degrees can be very dry, Crowley added a lot to make the OTO masonic degrees more palatable. 4* though still looks and operates like the Royal Arch degree....
2nd degree props would easily cost the officers $150 a piece if not more ??!?!?! That's ridiculous !!! What are you building? A Stone well ?!?!?! I can create all that from recycled materials for under $50 easily.
Remove the indefeasable right to the Third Degree???? That would be a very unbrotherly thing to do, humanity needs to evolve and if you take the tools away and make them less available, what exactly is the purpose of the OTO then ? Universal brotherhood for those who can afford it ? Ridiculous ! Make them free ! We need to put the FREE back in phremasonry !
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, December 26, 2006 - 3:18 AMI must disgaree with your idea that the OTO is a scam on masonry. In " Magick without Tears' Crowley states( I paraphrase) that he cut out all the stuff that did not jibe with the New Aeon. Also, when trying to make rituals smaller in the interest of doing one in sign for a totally deaf member, he realized most was just'filler'.
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, July 13, 2006 - 8:03 AMNon-OTO Thelemic Organizations?!?! What kind of drugs are YOU on? :)
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, August 22, 2006 - 3:40 AM"and the slaves shall serve." -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, August 22, 2006 - 12:01 PM"Beware therefore! Love all, lest perchance is a King concealed!" -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, August 22, 2006 - 1:31 PM"strike low " -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, December 26, 2006 - 3:19 AMDearest Rumple, I bet your the secret new Revolutionary, of USAGL! -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, December 26, 2006 - 1:38 PMWhat an annoying little pinhead you are ! -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, December 26, 2006 - 8:54 PMBeing a Freemason, while I can not divulge any secrets, I can state that the rituals are very similar to what I experienced in the OTO. I am a Co-Mason and that organization is older then the OTO, so you can deduce from that what you will.
93's
Dian
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, June 1, 2006 - 11:25 PMTemple of Thelema is in the Bay Area, as Squid notes; but fwiw also in Sacramento, Los Angeles, and Toronto.
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, May 25, 2006 - 4:17 PMTemple of Thelema (thelema.org/temple_of_th.../index.html), College of Thelema (thelema.org/college_of_t...a/index.html) , Aspirants To Light (aspirantstolight.org/) -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Fri, May 26, 2006 - 10:11 AM -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Fri, May 26, 2006 - 11:08 AMthere are several mystery schools (including one that I know of that just started in new jersey) that are led by a teacher and still offer the abremelin (merging with your angel)....
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Sat, May 27, 2006 - 8:50 AMThis will provided additional groups and info , use the search engine ( it's quite evil ! )
user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, July 18, 2006 - 2:52 AMIs OZ HOUSE still in exsistance in Oakland/Berkley? -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, July 18, 2006 - 6:42 AM93!
...as far as I know... Yes!
93 93/93 -
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Unsu...
Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, July 18, 2006 - 8:24 AMo.k. here goes. this is my first time posting to this tribe (it takes a bit for me to speak up). this thread has drifted a bit but the more recent posts relating to the oto and masonic degree work has something for me. BOTH organizations initiation rituals are pretty darn neat. they are what they are and the similarities/differences are a pleasure in my mind regardless of original ownership. i've had the pleasure and pain of participating in intensely beautiful ir's and some rather embarrassing ones. while imo the mmm degrees are a bit friskier than the blue lodge degrees, the masonic lodge has something going for it that the oto does not use. memory work is built in. (unless a candidate is unfortunate enough to do the modern "all degree day"). this is a great help to a candidate in understanding what they've experienced and if they take a chair in the future alot of their "lines" are easily accessible in the ol' skull. some people are great at memory work and acting and that makes them great officers in ritual work. some are not. there is a wm in a town by me who freely admits that he cannot focus long enough for memorizing his parts in initiations and therefore lets someone else take over for the benefit of the candidate(s). after all, it is their initiation and as a body or lodge we owe it to them to make it a very memorable experience. i'm going to cut my thoughts short because this is getting a bit lengthy. without divulging too much...anyone (perhaps squid) had the benefit of experiencing the shrine initiation and comparing it to the minerval degree? wow. also, the three burials of melquiades estrada is a pretty good movie imo. thanks for listening. LLLLDL
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Sun, May 28, 2006 - 9:40 PMYou guys rule. Thanks for this interesting grouping of organizations. -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Tue, July 11, 2006 - 4:06 PMI am a student at a Thelemic mystery school, like the kind that James mentioned.
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Sun, July 23, 2006 - 9:56 PMThere is also The Hermetic Alchemical Order of the QBLH, as well as the Gnostic Alchemical Church of Typhon-Christ.
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Sat, July 29, 2006 - 12:13 AMThere's the Antient Order of Illuminst Templars in the UK (www.invisblelodge.com) - they are fundamentally Thelemic but act as a nexus for Wiccans etc and have recently begun a publishing programme with Capricronvs Books (www.dragonheartpress.com) issuing a collection of grimoires, workings and received runes, The Book of Phorash, in 2006. -
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Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Sat, July 29, 2006 - 10:15 PMNow that sounds really cool. Thanks for link!
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Unsu...
Re: Non-OTO Thelemic Organizations
Thu, August 24, 2006 - 1:23 PMIt's not exclusively Thelemic, but certainly somewhat derivative...
Mahendranaths Western Nath Order is certainly within the spirit of thelema. Long story short: A contemporary of Crowley's was lamenting the sorry state of affairs in Western magic, and crowley suggested he go to India... so he did, and became a lineage holder in a variety of traditions, including the Adi Nath sect of Kaula Tantra.
Many of the more "orthodox" Naths today (esp. in the US) eschew the Thelemic roots of the order, but the European Naths seem to have no problem and even embrace it. The early writings of mahendranath were published in "the Star and Snake" and "Sothis".
More: www.shivashakti.com/dadaji.htm
