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If 1% of voters write in “Aleister Crowley,” then his message of Liberty will be heard around the world, as amazed media report a groundswell of support for someone they thought was not only dead and British, but still the wickedest man in the world.
Even if you don’t live in the U.S., or if you don’t actually plan to write in Crowley, that is no reason not to promote this campaign! At the very least, it is a great conversation starter, and in any case you will be helping to spread Crowley’s fundamental message of freedom, and his declaration of the sovereignty of the individual.
ac2012.wordpress.com/about-a...ey-2012/
Even if you don’t live in the U.S., or if you don’t actually plan to write in Crowley, that is no reason not to promote this campaign! At the very least, it is a great conversation starter, and in any case you will be helping to spread Crowley’s fundamental message of freedom, and his declaration of the sovereignty of the individual.
ac2012.wordpress.com/about-a...ey-2012/
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Re: AC 2012
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 6:42 AMThe site seems to explain the choice of AC. I'm not sure how Breeze would be a better choice in any way.
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Re: AC 2012
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 6:43 AMThere seems to be a lot of discussion about this topic over on the 2012 forum:
2012.tribe.net/thread/502...8920e64cb5c -
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Re: AC 2012
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 12:47 PM -
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Re: AC 2012
Sat, October 31, 2009 - 1:53 PMAre you upset about our systems?go change it then! change the system! YOU have the power!
until then you actually need to use your vote
for the *most appropriate* candidate, and encourage others to do so.
Please print up a flier,to spread your message, and do not toy with the elections, believe it or not
they may be more important than your message.(we are all crow heads here)
It is clueless self appointed radicals spouting recycled propaganda in public places
whom are begging so from the soul to call the people around you to the fact that you are
indeed unique and different complete with your own beliefs that you are scheming and shoving them
down peoples throats whom make the rest of us look bad.
Perhaps your christian upbringing in a christian society has caused you to have
an inherent need to spread the word of "Crowley the baptist" to the people you perceive as savages.
People will happen upon the work of Crowley and Thelema with their own Will
at their own desire to do so, it may also be presented by a mentor,on a personal basis,
and that is the way it should be in my opinion.
It is indeed asking people to play with the electoral system in order
to spread their religion,which is fundamentally wrong.
I would expect this from a Mormon,or a Jehovah's witness, NOT Thelema. -
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Re: AC 2012
Mon, November 16, 2009 - 1:54 PMSome of us think this is the most appropriate use of our vote. Disagreement is OK, it's a free country.
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Re: AC 2012
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 7:01 AMDo what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
...all arguments about the relative value of voting and the american republic aside, writing in crowley for president is not substantively different than writing in "king jesus." (Bahlasti! Ompehda!) if you've the will to promulgate the law of thelema, then by all means do so - but i do recommend that you don't resort to idiot tactics like this.
i mean, consider what the media response would Actually be if this effort was successful. consider how... how just plain Dumb nader's supporters sounded when their whole platform was "we want to get x percent of the popular vote to get our party funded by the government so we can raise awareness about Issues." consider the effing book of the law, if nothing else will get through.
I, 10 "Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known."
to what end this spreading his "fundamental message?" the Law is for all, yes, but also consider I, 39 - "Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds."
there will Never be a mass popular thelemic movement. the attempt to create one has the potential to destroy thelema itself, and we'd be left with something that's just Called thelema and runs along the lines of a poem crowley wrote, that i'll quote in full.
There met one eve in a sylvan glade,
a horrible man and a beautiful maid.
Where are you going, so meek and holy?
I'm going to temple to worship Crowley.
So Crowley is God then? How did you know?
Well it's Captain Fuller that told us so.
And how do you know that Fuller was right?
I'm afraid you're a wicked man, good night.
While this sort of thing is styled success,
I shall not count failure bitterness
...just look at what happens to everything else that becomes a religion and starts trying to "spread the good news." few & secret, joseph, few & secret. are gnostic masses every tuesday, everyone on the planet (no matter how base and vile) giving the Law to each other, politicians and religious types using thelema to justify tyranny...
..is that really what you want? that's what you'll effing Get, eventually, if this path you mention is followed and follwed up on.
take the next few verses i quote together.
I, 11 "These are fools that men adore; both their Gods and their men are fools."
I, 31 "For these fools of men and their woes care not at all! They feel little; what is, is balanced by weak joys; but ye are my chosen ones."
II, 18 "They are dead, these fellows; they feel not. We are not for the poor and sad: the lords of the earth are our kinsfolk."
II, 21 "We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world..."
II, 58 "Yea! deem not of change: ye shall be as ye are, & not other. Therefore the kings of the earth shall be Kings for ever: the slaves shall serve. There is none that shall be cast down or lifted up: all is ever as it was. Yet there are masked ones my servants: it may be that yonder beggar is a King. A King may choose his garment as he will: there is no certain test: but a beggar cannot hide his poverty."
II, 59. "Beware therefore! Love all, lest perchance is a King concealed! Say you so? Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him."
II, 60. "Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master!"
...i really just can't believe that you think "the world" at large will even be effing Capable of hearing the Law. it's not for us to go and Save These People by telling them the Good News (pardon me - i need to go vomit now) about Thelema. that asarian nonsense is fortunately behind us, and i can't imagine a single happy end resulting from it's resuscitation.
you want to set up Crowley to be adored by the people? read the book of the law. you want to spread crowley's message of life, light, love and liberty to people who have no will to hear it? read the book of the law. you want to go and tell all these people to cast off their chains, that they are free and explain the nature of their freedom to them? read the book of the law.
II, 25 "Ye are against the people, O my chosen!"
Love is the law, love under will. -
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Re: AC 2012
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 2:55 AM"It is indeed asking people to play with the electoral system in order
to spread their religion,which is fundamentally wrong.
I would expect this from a Mormon,or a Jehovah's witness, NOT Thelema."
See - thats why America is run as a christian country - because while they push their cause, the left wing etc. sit back and say "it shouldnt be done that way". Which is true - but a sure way to ensure the triumph of monotheism over society. My solution is to fight back in whatever way we can - the ballot box is one of the best ways - to ENSURE that America remains free. But if its your will to sit back and allow every bit of freedom we have to be overturned by the others who dont share your enlightened ways - so be it. "The slaves shall serve".
The blacks and the gays learnt that lesson the hard way, before they started fighting for their rights. When they tried to hide in cafes and in ghettoes, it didnt exactly work out for them.
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" consider the effing book of the law, if nothing else will get through.
I, 10 "Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known."
Crowley was very much in favor of OTO members spreading Thelema far and wide. Whatever this verse refers to, it certainly bears no relation to Thelema. I'd have to look it up, but I'm not even sure that Crowley had fleshed out the idea of Thelema as a religion by this point. (Possibly he had, but I thought this came after he rediscovered his MS of AL). The most insider-relevant idea would be that this refers to servants of the "inner light". ANYHOO...
"Without an army I am useless; a Napoleon at St. Helena"
"I must do that which I was sent hither to do; namely, to rule the earth."
"there will Never be a mass popular thelemic movement. the attempt to create one has the potential to destroy thelema itself"
Crowley took several steps after his trip to Spain with Neuberg, in which he thought about the qualities of how to become a world teacher. These included publishing the equinox and performing the Rites of Eleusis in public, all of which was intended to advertise in public to increase his numbers. If you read around, you'll find plenty of examples where he demanded that his followers give public lectures, advertise widely, publish pamphlets, all of which was intended to increase the numbers as much as possible. His movement into the OTO was also a deliberate attempt to use that body to develop his church.
Of course, there were two Crowleys, and two organizations; the AA and the OTO. The first was kept somewhat quiet (Equinox notwithstanding), and the latter was intended to become a new world religion, to replace the religions of the old aeon. Thelema was of the latter. His insistence that everyone greet everyone - from the butcher to the priest - with "Do what thou wilt" was his strong attempt to spread the meme as widely as possible in society.
No doubt, the earlier Crowley, when he didnt have a chance of starting a religion, sneered at those who did. But certainly the Crowley from the Equinox through the OTO was deeply intent on forming a world religion, one in which Liber AL, which you quote, was to take the place of the Bible on every altar. Everything from his diaries, letters through to OZ and the blue Equinox make this clear. Only the AA was kept virginal and pure.
However, I do agree with you on one point; writing in AC would be pointless - he is dead, after all.
If the Caliphate pretend to the leadership of the OTO, then surely a better move would be for Mr. William Breeze to run for public office.
On a personal and more serious note, I do think that the world needs a pagan alternative to christianity. Christianity is leading people astray in this world of shrinking resources; the combination of naming the animals (having sovereignty over nature) and being fruitful and multiplying geometrically is endangering the planetary ecosystem. A nature-oriented religion would go a great deal towards reversing this. (Thelema is merely a replacement for the authoritarianism of Christianity, but its just as materialistic/phallic, so its not the answer).
Imagine youre a kid - you basically have no choice but to be a christian. The closest alternative you have is to become a "witch" - something that has been so associated with evil that people often only turn to it out of a rejection of their parents/teachers/
Now imagine if every neighborhood had a park close by that was dedicated to paganism; where they could run semi-wild and worship in greek temples etc. Something far less sinister than huddling over a cauldron by dead of night.
Yup! We need a new religion. I'm currently working out the mechanics of developing one. Unfortunately I'm not the leader type, as Crowley was, because its desperately needed. -
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Re: AC 2012
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 3:14 AM"" consider the effing book of the law, if nothing else will get through. "
Its this kind of thinking that confirms to me that Americans just are intrinsically incapable of "getting" Crowley. All that political correctness, intellectual dumbing down, valuing "getting along" over advancing new ideas - America just isnt an intellectual hotbed of revolutionary ideas. The only think coming out of the cafes here is watered down poetry and coffee. Burning barricades and student protests isnt something that America does - until the students are themselves affected, as in Vietnam. There is a certain certitude and a contentedness, a belief in "american exceptionalism" mixed with a profound desire to ignore world events that allows the real movers and shakers to control the country without even trying. I believe thats partly caused by the sheer necessity stemming from the need to have 300 million people all get along. Its either drop the passion, or have civil wars. Crowley was DEFINITELY a schit stirrer. And Thelema, was his army to stir the Schit with.
Lets not confuse this with the AA.
The purpose of Thelema was change society to support the work of the AA - in particular, to strengthen individualism. To change laws that would restrict freedoms.
Its all very well to regard liber oz as a happy thought, as a metaphor; "and to kill those who would deny you these rights" (not an exact quote, I know). But the intent is clear - to change the system until these rights are established as undeniable. And that means changing the laws. And that means mucking the fingers in the electoral system. And doing as Crowley did, pamphleting, giving public lectures, active recruiting, etc etc.
The mormons acted to deny gays the right to marry in california last year. Unless the gays act as the mormons do, and seek a ballot initiative to overturn this, its not going to drop out of heaven into their laps. Me? I think a great idea would be to put a ballot initiative up denying Mormons the right to marry. It would make a salient point, whether passed or not.
I believe that all that evil requires to succeed is for good people to do nothing.
But I dont really expect much from "thelema" (i.e. "leave me alone please") given the response to my post on boycotting Kelloggs as they piled on the "marijuana is evil" bandwagon for commercial gain. -
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Re: AC 2012
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 8:02 PMSometimes it can seem as though someone has done or said
something so bad, that you're in the Right no matter what your
rebuttal is, this is often the case in people who have experienced
abuse of one kind or another, and it is the Precursor to the
abusive cycle.
The idea is that one comes upon any of these teachings
and ideas after displaying an interest in the occult,
and chooses to receive them through his or her own will
to do so, this prevents those whom would blindly
follow a cult mentality,or those who would seek personal
or financial gain by exploiting such people(think of the peoples church,
or what has happened to Scientology in the last 20 years)
Certainly not a path one would want the works of A. Crowley
or F. Perdurabo to end up going down, for it seals the fate of the
work itself to demise in literary obscurity given enough time.
As bad as it seems , the universe is in equilibrium,
And humans and the state of society, are in equilibrium,
And nature takes its wild waving course naturally,
And humans are indeed a part of nature,and the universe.
Anything that ever was or ever will be was always going to
And always will and always will have , no exceptions.
SAMSON
"The Universe is in equilibrium; therefore He that is
without it, though his force be but a feather, can
overturn the Universe.
Be not caught within that web, O child of Freedom!
Be not entangled in the universal lie, O child of
Truth!"- B.O.L.
I believe this "battle" that has been waged
between republicans and dems, christians
and the occult, whomever and whomever et.c
is a big plate of " I'm right and you're wrong" garnished
with a lot of anger, sprinkled with hatred,
and self righteousness, sauteed in misinformation
spiced with contempt for a differing palate,
stewed in a lack of awareness and served
to a crowd of people subliminally persuaded
to believe that they are starving
from one end or another, by 1000 waiters who won't
shut up or listen in a giant restaurant with no menu
,which will surely expel us all into the darkened alley,
or worse, the "great dumpster of demise"(lol)
Only talking talking talking, never doing for themselves,
They only seek to inhibit others , to dissolve freedom.
Oblivious tongues a wagglin' all the while, the lions draw near.
Whom will sound the siren while we gabble on?
another from the B.O.L., i find there are suitable
passages in this book for almost any conversation.
THE BULL-BAITING
" Fourscore and eleven books wrote I; in each did I
expound THE GREAT WORK fully, from The
beginning even unto The End thereof.
Then at last came certain men unto me, saying:
O Master! Expound thou THE GREAT WORK
unto us, O Master!
And I held my peace.
O generation of gossipers! who shall deliver you
from the Wrath that is fallen upon you?
O Babblers, Prattlers, Talkers, Loquacious Ones,
Tatlers, Chewers of the Red Rag that inflameth
Apis the Redeemer to fury, learn first what is
Work! and THE GREAT WORK is not so far
beyond!"
I'm certainly no ipsissimus, not even close, in fact I dont even study much.
these are just my thoughts.
and I totally thought the kellogs things was bullshit, who did they think they were?
Love is the Law, Love under Will.- j
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Re: AC 2012
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 6:51 PM"another from the B.O.L., i find there are suitable
passages in this book for almost any conversation."
The Book of the Law was written before Crowley decided to change the world with Thelema. Indeed, even before he started the AA. At that point, he was playng at the whole exclusivity of the path to abiegnus thang. There is a difference between a personal spiritual journey, to which AL refers, and the whole Masonic brotherhood for the impovement of mankind thang (Thelema). -
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Re: AC 2012
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 9:56 PMActually , these excerpts are from the Book of Lies.
See as I recall,once read, et.c.
Keeping to the point.
There are indeed notable differences between the young Crowley
Himself and the old Crowley, an adept. Many popular public opinions are attributed to his
Earlier works.
Let's agree that Thelema is ideally great for
Anyone, assuming we all live in a perfect
World, but we don't, obviously.
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Re: AC 2012
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:04 PM"Let's agree that Thelema is ideally great for
Anyone, assuming we all live in a perfect
World, but we don't, obviously. "
Isnt that what they say about Christianity?
Difference is that Christianity isnt full of elitists who would rather sit in an exclusive club than change society. As a result, our laws are being written by christians. -
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Re: AC 2012
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 1:21 PMOur laws are written by Christians because they are the popular majority.
This is all assuming there will be a 2012, i would love to hear
2012 theories from the members of this tribe. -
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Re: AC 2012
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 3:37 PM"This is all assuming there will be a 2012, i would love to hear
2012 theories from the members of this tribe. "
I predict that book sales for Daniel Pinchbeck and Jose Arguelles will rise to an unprecedented peak toward the end of November of 2012, then cease abruptly a month later, as if the world had ended.
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Re: AC 2012
Wed, November 11, 2009 - 4:05 PM"Our laws are written by Christians because they are the popular majority. "
That is half of the reason - of course it begs a further question - Why are Christians the popular majority? I think you will find a list of actions taken by the Church to make this a reality. Evangelicalism doesnt spread just because.
The second half of the reason is that various Christian groups play activist roles in changing the laws. You dont have far too look: "The Family" - and its role in the Stupak Amendment, or the Mormon role in overturning Gay Marriage in California.
Basically, the Mormons fought for what they wanted, and the thelemites sat back.
I'm not expecting you to change your choice - just to acknowledge a basic truth - the squeaky wheel gets the grease. -
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Re: AC 2012
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 8:45 AM"That is half of the reason - of course it begs a further question - Why are Christians the popular majority? I think you will find a list of actions taken by the Church to make this a reality. Evangelicalism doesnt spread just because. "
Yes it does, 76.5 of the people in this country raise their children as Christians, that's an automatic, just because,
approximate 235, 017 ,274 new voting Christians every year, it is indeed its own beast.
2 percent or less of them will become Thelemites.
I always wondered how the Mormons could talk ,given their questionable beliefs and ethics regarding marriage
in the first place(not that i personally have anything against it, just that America as a whole disapproves).
Anyways your obviously in California,and I didn't even have the chance to fight against the gay marriage law in Cali
, I live in Nashville, Tennessee, bills protecting gay rights in the workplace still fail here by an astounding 87%.
we are a long way off on marriage ,if ever. You guys think you have it tough, walk a mile in my shoes as a gay
radical occultist in the heart of the bible belt.
California, by the way, is a poor representation of the rest of the world.
In Tennessee, the squeaky wheel is told to move to California!
I was thinking the same thing about 2012, nothing.
If anything miraculous , that our laws of space/time/matter/gravity may be altered briefly somehow due
to the sun's rare eclipse of the dark rift the black hole at the center of our galaxy, causing an undeniable
realization of how things really work, prompting a new age of truth and knowledge indicated by the mayan
calendar which started the whole hullabaloo.
but most probably nothing.
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Re: AC 2012
Thu, November 12, 2009 - 7:47 PM". Evangelicalism doesnt spread just because. "
Yes it does"
No it doesnt. Evangelicalism is spreading, not only in Ameria, but also in S. America and in Europe, because Evangelicals evangelise. I will grant you that most people just are what they were born, but Islam, Evangelicalism and others spread through work, and the fire and the sword. Now while I dont espouse the latter, I have the intelligence to recognize an historical fact when I see one.
For a religion that spreads "just because", you can look to the success of Judaism. Thats spreads through culture alone, not through evangelism.
"Anyways your obviously in California,and I didn't even have the chance to fight against the gay marriage law in Cali
, I live in Nashville, Tennessee...You guys think you have it tough, walk a mile in my shoes as a gay
radical occultist in the heart of the bible belt. "
Mormons in Utah worked to defeat gay marriage in Calfornia. I'm sure your dollars would have been welcomed in Ca.
I dont really have it tough at all, as I'm mostly heterosexual. Having said that, I put up a lawn sign on my car when my landlord refused to allow me to put one on the lawn. I also encouraged all my friends to get out and vote. Liberty is Liberty - no matter whose. If we dont fight for liberty every time it is threatened - whether or not we are personally affected - we'll lose it teaspoon by teaspoon. -
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Re: AC 2012
Sat, November 14, 2009 - 3:28 PMp.s. I just realized that this could be taken another way - no, I'm not affecting a lisp. :) :)
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Re: AC 2012
Wed, November 18, 2009 - 12:24 AM"Many popular public opinions are attributed to his Earlier works."
Really? like which ones? Just one or two examples would be interesting to hear about. -
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Re: AC 2012
Wed, November 18, 2009 - 7:54 AMI call "done" on myself where any further conversation with
a certain few folk here on this topic in particular.
It has become an argument, some are to immature
to withhold direct personal insult.
Time to choose battles,and this one is unworthy.
Using the electoral system for reasons other than to elect an official in the nation in which you reside
is pointless , disrespectful, and irresponsible, that's not an opinion, it's a fact, you see some things
arent opinions, they are facts, if i hit you in the eye, that would be painful, and mean, and un-called for,
and that would be a fact, i may be of the opinion that you deserved it, but that wouldn't make it "nice".
That is a fact , please learn the difference, before you're claiming opinion on all sorts of important
facts, overlooking them,and getting yourself in trouble.
And remember not to let personal feelings get the better of you and stray you from your goals.
Love is the law, love under will.
DONE! :poof!:
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Re: AC 2012
Thu, November 19, 2009 - 12:59 AM"It has become an argument, some are to immature
to withhold direct personal insult. "
I dont see any direct personal insults in this thread, apart from perhaps "some are too immature", although this is of course, not direct, as it is indirected at "some".
"Time to choose battles,and this one is unworthy. Using the electoral system for reasons <snip>"
I guess thats your way of saying you want the last word.
"Using the electoral system for reasons other than to elect an official in the nation in which you reside
is pointless , disrespectful, and irresponsible, that's not an opinion, it's a fact, you see some things
arent opinions, they are facts,"
"is pointless , disrespectful, and irresponsible, that's not an opinion"
Yes - its a value judgement. It certainly isnt a fact. What is pointless to you, is not pointless to another. What is disrespectful to you, is not to another. What is irresponsible to you, is not to another. What is blasphemous to you, is not to another. What is wrong to you, is not to another. A battle to you that is unworthy, is not to another.
"That is a fact , please learn the difference, before you're claiming opinion on all sorts of important
facts, overlooking them,and getting yourself in trouble. And remember not to let personal feelings get the better of you"
Coming from someone who has just personalized the entire thread in a set of invective, I find that remark most curious.
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Like everything else, the electoral system is a tool to be used. Had you ever lived in a more complicated voting system, like PR, you would probably be more aware of this, as there is more room for strategic voting than in a first-past-the-post system. Nevertheless, even in the US system, there are plenty of strategic moves: Do you vote your conscience with Ralph Nader, or do you vote for the guy who has a chance, and avoid splitting the vote? Do you vote in the primary of the party you dislike to select an unelectable opponent? Do you perhaps "send a message" to Obama by not turning up at the midterms in order to force more liberal policies? Do you vote for Cindy Sheehan over Nancy Pelosi to focus peoples minds on the Iraq war?
If anything, voting for someone simply because you want to elect them, as a person, is the perversion. Many voted for George Bush because they liked him and wanted to have a beer with him.
Nobody is asked to participate in a system of their choice. When you have 2 parties that are alike and equally repulsive, electing tweedledum over tweedledee is not democracy, it does not respect the ideals of democracy. Sometimes your only choice is to NOT vote, for the express purpose of expressing your disdain for the entire system. I strongly believe there should be a box on every ballot form "present" - i.e. "I turned up at the booth, but I dont want any of you in office" Politicians will, however, never allow this way to register public disapproval of their efforts. In some countries they force you to vote so they are not shamed by poor turnouts. Of course, you will always used to have the alternative of "spoiling your vote", by either writing direct insults on your ballot or by writing in candidates like "A.C.". Now that we are going all touchscreen, your right to protest all the parties is being taken away.
The ballot box is the only tool that the average citizen has to register his opinion in any meaningful way
To eliminate the right, or to fight against the right, to use this tool to its fullest potential, and reduce it to a meaningless beauty contest between 2 corrupt alternatives is pointless , disrespectful, and irresponsible.
Thats not a fact, its an opinion.
You do not share that opinion.
But I'm not going to call you immature. -
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Re: AC 2012
Thu, November 19, 2009 - 5:20 PMyoga: exercise your right to liberate!
you can lead a horse to water, he might not drink it, but you've given him an option he might not have been aware of, or might have been, who knows? he might be thirsty when he gets to the water and it might just take a few minutes to realize, there are choices.
i like the ac2012 groove. i think to take it too seriously without being realistic is silly. i've loved pondering the idea that some may want liberation and have no idea there is a group of people who support it, responsibility, and can enjoy some jest while on this trying journey.
i don't know who i'll vote for in 2012. how could i? but i am certain if i take the time, it will be an educated decision based on what changes i wish to see in the world and whom might be able to attain those magical dreams come true. i'm not all that political anyway.
michael pollan for prez! (there, i said it!)
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Re: AC 2012
Tue, November 17, 2009 - 11:22 PMI dont think its anger; I think its a desire for thelema to remain a club for the elite, rather than another world religion, as AC intended. Masonry for those who cant get sponsors ;> (Yes, I'm trolling :)
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Re: AC 2012
Mon, November 16, 2009 - 1:59 PMI am glad to see that this topic has inspired so much discussion about Thelema.
The idea seems worth spreading to me. The site even says you don't have to vote for AC to be a supporter:
ac2012.wordpress.com/2009/10...in-2012/
