Which OTO?

topic posted Wed, September 22, 2004 - 9:39 PM by  Ryen
Anyone have any thoughts on which OT can lay claim to the "real deal"?
Is this a can of worms post?
posted by:
  • Re: Which OTO?

    Wed, September 22, 2004 - 10:28 PM
    Funny question, I thought "reality" is what you can get away with?

    Definitely a can of worms.
    • Re: Which OTO?

      Sat, October 2, 2004 - 3:24 PM
      OH the KTO ( knights Templar Oasis) in Salem MA of course- so send us money so we can keep our temple space up and running!!!- How many OTO's do you know of? anyone not being OTO and calling themselves OTO have already been sued- - - -It really doesnt matter.
      ------ Azazel
    • Re: Which OTO?

      Mon, March 14, 2005 - 1:13 PM
      They all lay claim.

      They all are wrong.

      I see the OTO as the last link with the Old Aeon.

      Give me Maatian magick any day.

      Interesting as we are in the death throes of the OTO and we are in the Emperor cycle, March 20 startes the Death Year 108 in the Thelemic Calendar. Maybe the OTO will pick a new open minded Caliphate that will break down the walls with other Thelemic groups. Nah. Lon Milo doesn't want the job, I bet.

      Patriarchy is alive and well in the OTO.

      The Gnostic mass is good, the study of the Kabballah is good.
      Anything else?
      • Re: Which OTO?

        Mon, March 14, 2005 - 1:15 PM
        Oops silly me. I meant Thelemic year 101.

        Let's see 108 will be Aeon Year.

        Hey maybe there will be a breakthrough then.
      • Re: Which OTO?

        Sun, March 20, 2005 - 9:56 PM
        "Maatian magick" - sounds like Bostonians practicing magick on Mars. :-D

        I have heard somewhere that the year 2012 (Thelemic 108, as you say,) is predicted to have some significance, but I don't remember exactly what I heard predicted. I guess I avoid getting wrapped up in hearsay.
        • Re: Which OTO?

          Mon, March 21, 2005 - 12:27 PM
          Well year 2014 will be the beginning of the Hierophant cycle. That's signficant.

          Actually I have an astral temple orbiting Mars, but most Maatians use the Moon base Temple. SMILE

          Horus Maat Lodge

  • Re: Which OTO?

    Sun, September 26, 2004 - 4:45 PM
    Hi there,
    I have a contact who claims that since 98' or 99' the OTO here in the US which claims legal right to the tittle, had published literary works on an A.:A.: year of silence, it had broken the magickal current set up by Therion. Hence it effectively severed it's links with the 93 current. IMO alot of the US (supposed World) OTO has gotten in bed with politics and is moving towards becoming a group of card carrying GOP'ers. Their recent enforcement of newly interpreted by-laws of Oasis and Lodge activities is indicative and represents thinking which appears to be focused on becoming a group not far removed from a special interest groups which may be standing on line with the other lobbyists like the NRA.
    One member I know (a 5th deg) says that "I joined a revolutionary group of activists, and as of late I am sadly disappointed to see how the dues are spent (law suits etc.)
    I could go on....but thought i'd give a few points on any group who claims selective elitism.
    peace and tolerance........
    • Unsu...

      Re: Which OTO?

      Mon, September 27, 2004 - 5:02 AM
      If I'm going to say that the OTO is guilty of anything, and I'm not exactly saying that, it's that most seem to have forgotten that "The Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs" They quote and preach Chapter III, totally ignoring Chapter I. Not to mention, we were warned in the commentary directly proceding to be wary of any who spoke of the details within Liber Al. We cannot afford to Catholicize, to make Orthodox, Current 93. It is, by it's very nature, nonphilosophic and nonreligious - to impose is not Thelema. Now I will not impose my Will upon the OTO. If they choose to pick fights with the major religions of the world, if they choose to interpret the channeling of Ra-Hoor-Khuit in this manner, then Amen. But it is not Thelema. If anything, it's a Western, predominately Christian-like idealism. Like Oedipus, slaying the Sphinx, they make themselves blind, because they can't really see Nuit. Personally, to me, it makes no sense. There is no law beyond "Do What Thou Wilt." That's all I have to say.

      • Unsu...

        Re: Which OTO?

        Mon, September 27, 2004 - 6:35 AM
        As a member of OTO for ten years, I can safely say the assertions you make are TOTAL fiction...

        OTO does not pick fights with major religions, focus on only one chapter of Liber Al, create orthodoxy, or impose any interpretation of Thelema.
        • Which group of OTO?

          Mon, September 27, 2004 - 11:10 AM
          You can send me a message privately if you'd prefer.
          I'm also interested in weighing benefits of instructor-aided vs. individual study/practice.

          Part of the impetus for this post came from here, btw:
          • and I should add:

            Mon, September 27, 2004 - 11:13 AM
            I am interested in weighing the benefits of OTO vs. say for instance, the Order of Thelemic Knights.

            I'm a curious fellow.
            • Re: and I should add:

              Tue, September 28, 2004 - 1:44 PM
              Well, the Order of Thelemic Knights was started by caliphite OTO initiates and is my invitation only. I think that they are complimentry of each other.
            • Re: and I should add:

              Sat, June 4, 2005 - 12:59 PM
              You are able to be in more than one magickal organization at a time. All paths have truth. I would not limit self to officiality.
          • Re: Which group of OTO?

            Tue, September 28, 2004 - 1:48 PM
            If you were to be part of the OTO, you would find benefits from both types of practice. In my experience, OTO leaders leave you alone to work and study on your own. They've never bothered me in the least. However, if I desire assistance, they are also there, so for me, I get the benefit of both methods.

            Personally for me, I find balance in both group work and individual work.

            I've also been able to connect with brothers and sisters from the order who wish to do some group work outside the order.
        • Re: Which OTO?

          Mon, March 14, 2005 - 1:17 PM
          Yeah but they sure do blacklist a lot of people and get sites shut down for no particular reason except they want to be the only Thelemic game in town.

          Can't we all just get along?
          • Re: Which OTO?

            Thu, March 17, 2005 - 11:42 AM
            >> Yeah but they sure do blacklist a lot of people<<

            With the exception of the occasional member placed on Bad Report status (which affects only attendance at OTO functions) I can't think of any "blacklist." What are you talking about?

            >>and get sites shut down for no particular reason<<

            Again, I can't think of examples of this outside very specific circumstances - generally a site that is violating copyrights held by the OTO. Do you know of cases that were not based on theft of intellectual property?
      • Re: Which OTO?

        Mon, September 27, 2004 - 5:43 PM
        Hi ya'll,
        In response I have also found that often individuals will pick any piece of scripture to bolster an arguement. Be them Xist or Thelemites or Crowleyites. So yea I 've seen people pick chp 3 over 1. Heh there's a whole bunch of Wiccans who pick 1 over 3 (lol) if they only knew it!

        About the warning in the back of AL....
        people might want to look up "pestilence" it's meaning is not exactly what most people give it. Literally it can mean "something catchy" , not bad or good.
        So perhaps I have been a "center of pestilence."
        Besides the book says "burn it" I certainly do not do everything I am told...especially if i read it :)

        But I personally like what I have read on this Tribe...especially those who are not fearful of hearing other voices....despite what dogma has been pounded out as truth.
        As I like to say "Just Do it." Perhaps RHK is really the Nike shoe Co. in disguise. :)
        • Unsu...

          Re: Which OTO?

          Mon, October 4, 2004 - 8:02 AM
          I'm not a Thelemite but if I were can't guarantee I would get inovolved witha lodge either. Much larger and looser groups then what I'm guess an OTO lodge has would be much more comfortable. The local chapter here in Minneapolis which supposedly the number two pagan capital in the grand ole US boasts about ten active people.
          • Re: Which OTO?

            Mon, October 11, 2004 - 8:23 AM
            I had been active in OTO for over 10 years and in the last 5+ years the Order IMO has become more conservative and as a result more boring and less likely to DARE to do anything revolutionary outside of a court room. There is still an OTO operating in Europe that is of the Reuss lineage, that has operated without the Crowley influence. This Order of course is probably much more Masonic and the Caliphate OTO has been in contact with this body but I dunno if they recognize each other. I am more in favour of an OTO like construct without a leader, a grand tribunal, oaths of obedience etc , all that baggage that are left overs from the old aeon way of doing things. Yea, and no dues either, make it autonomous! Make the WORK the focus and not politics,power or money. Put the FREE back in masonry!
            • Re: Which OTO?

              Wed, November 3, 2004 - 9:11 AM
              Ya know, I'd have to say that an O.T.O. from the Reuss lineage would be more authentic than a Caliphate O.T.O.
              • Re: Which OTO?

                Sat, January 6, 2007 - 6:57 AM
                "Ya know, I'd have to say that an O.T.O. from the Reuss lineage would be more authentic than a Caliphate O.T.O."

                Authentic yes. Legally recognized in American courts of copyright law? Nope. That goes to the first to incorporate.
            • Unsu...

              Re: Which OTO?

              Mon, March 28, 2005 - 7:06 PM
              am an AutonomatriX style OTO?
              maybe there should be one.... hmmmmm....
            • Re: Which OTO?

              Sat, April 30, 2005 - 6:32 AM
              just to make things more confusing theres also the TOTO based mainly on grants unique exegesis and the UROTO an umberella group of containing lots of lineages and styles thelemic, traditional (masonic), experimental and so on. Also in the UK is the Albion OTO which lays claim to extensive chartering. Naturally like all the OTOs people have different views on the authenticity of these bodies.
    • Unsu...

      Re: Which OTO?

      Wed, March 16, 2005 - 2:24 PM
      I can assure you that most of the members of the OTO are not Republican. There are a few, and they get a lot of good-natured ribbing about their political stances.

      Also, I think that you're confusing the planes when you speak of the OTO and the A.'.A.'.. The OTO is not the A.'.A.'.. The A.'.A.'. has years of silence, the OTO does not. They're seperate organizations. The OTO publishing on an A.'.A.'. year of silence is not the equivalent of pressing some cosmic 93 delete key. The OTO is still a Thelemic organization, and I can assure you, we are very much in contact with the 93 current.
    • Re: Which OTO?

      Fri, December 29, 2006 - 11:53 PM
      If any of the usual GOP'ers were like the Hermits I met at the Kingmaking in OZ, I would say that it is a good thing and about time too. Also, my Father is slightly rich. If he votes for anything other than ( ugh!) republicans, taxes get all his money( as in past) and my trust fund does not. I am a Libertarian - we like to keep our money too, but I doubt one will be elected soon, so its a lesser of two evils for those who make any good amount of money. By the way, the democrats are just as bad warmongers,a s repub. Also - hey, rend under to Caesar' and conform with uniform of country - to paraphrase AC.
  • Re: Which OTO?

    Fri, November 26, 2004 - 6:55 AM
    I would say that everything that needs to be said about the Truth and myth of the OTO is on the OTO Phenominon pages by Peter Koenig.
    • Re: Which OTO?

      Sat, January 22, 2005 - 2:36 PM
      This is a very beautiful question
      I'm glad you asked

      It should be known to you all
      The real OTO is body which exists on a transcendental plane

      There are many powerful Thelemites within the OTO who have never been to any "meetings" with others at some Lodge.

      The Lodge is a temple that exists in a reality where the walls are not made of wood or stone, but something more real, and living.
    • Re: Which OTO?

      Tue, December 26, 2006 - 3:24 AM
      I totally disagree. Koenig has a ax to gringd against all occultists, therefore can even be taken as 'indifferent', wnich he claims. I also do not agree with Koenig, as its like reading a textbook on biology and thinking you understand passionate love.
      People who have never experinced the Beauty of the Oreder, will never be true initiates, thus never be able to reveal its secrets. They are not to be found in web post!
      • Re: Which OTO?

        Sat, January 6, 2007 - 7:02 AM
        "I totally disagree. Koenig has a ax to gringd against all occultists, therefore can even be taken as 'indifferent', wnich he claims. I also do not agree with Koenig, as its like reading a textbook on biology and thinking you understand passionate love. "

        (1) It would be nice if you focussed on the truth or otherwise of what he posts; not on your opinion of his opinion.

        (2) Biologists understand passionate love. I have met a few and can vouch for it. Just because they havent fallen in love with your boyfriend, doesnt mean they dont know anything about love.
      • Re: Which OTO?

        Sat, January 6, 2007 - 10:03 AM
        "People who have never experinced the Beauty of the Oreder, will never be true initiates, thus never be able to reveal its secrets. They are not to be found in web post!"

        Mc Murtry did not have access to the initiation rituals until Francis King published them. At that point, the caliphate depended on this book.

        "Neither Motta or McMurtry possessed the actual rituals of the Crowleyan
        O.T.O. until they were published in 1973 by Francis King."

        ""At the initiations, McMurtry
        used Francis King's book."
        See link for sources.
  • Unsu...

    Re: Which OTO?

    Wed, March 16, 2005 - 2:08 PM
    I'll start off by stating that I've been a member of the OTO for close to 10 years. Please take that into consideration.

    My advice is to do what I did before taking an initiation - read everything that you can find about the organization. Know as much going in as you can. An initiatory order has formal secrets that are revealed over time, but you should be able to find plenty of historical documentation online about the various orders.

    From there, do what thou wilt!
  • Re: Which OTO?

    Tue, March 22, 2005 - 12:14 AM

    Which OTO can lay claim to the "real deal"?

    Well, I’ve been a member of the OTO since 1989. Here is a brief take on things (IMO)…

    IMO, the current OTO, which many call the Caliphate OTO, is a true manifestation of Carl Germer's idea that was later modified and expanded on by the Master Therion and then revived by Grady. If you read through the history and events of the Order you may come to many conclusions, however, it is clear to me as to what the Master Therion had in mind and what we now call the OTO are slowly becoming the same. Why? (as some would ask). Nothing on this manifested planet is perfect, especially when it involves people. ;-) The history is self-evident as to what has happened and shows the continued efforts of many dedicated people in their hard work to revive the order in the USA and later keep things alive. Now, the OTO seems to be at the point where it is starting to build towards what the Master Therion had stated it should be. This will take time and patience. The later of which seems to be a real issue for most people.

    If you read through the main documents of the order, read through some of the turbulent history and then get on track in a more personal manner (i.e. study, Magick, etc.) then you will come to realize many important things. Liber OZ, “Duty” and the Master Therion’s message to those who would join the order are quite clear (IMO). Personal freedom, taking responsibility for one’s actions and so on and so forth. There is too much to list here and hence the reason for in-depth study.

    Many “OTO’s” have come and gone over the years. The latest thing or newest idea has proven time and time again to not be the best thing after all. This is not meant as a put-down or sneer to others that have tried to start up a new OTO, but rather an observation based off of events.

    So, after much change, turmoil, disagreement and dissention, the OTO is still here and will continue to be manifest in the coming years. Yes, the OTO is changing and growing and with growth comes the necessity of growing with it. Those who are still members to this date are so due to a sincere belief by dedicated members, who are practicing Magickians, which believe in the OTO and what it will become one day as work with in it continues.

    The OTO is the outer order in which people come and go at will. The A:.A:. is the inner order of seriously dedicated and actively practicing Magickians. The two are separate and yet I have yet to hear of any A:.A:. member falling away. It seems common (these days) that people who join the OTO, don’t do the legwork in their studies, lack in participation and have come up with personal issues that they attempt to smack the OTO with. They become, in essence, disenchanted and fall away.



    Frater Lux Summos Deus
    • Re: Which OTO?

      Mon, March 28, 2005 - 10:43 PM
      Frater Lux Summos Deus
      I like what you say here.
      And it was perfect for me to read it today. This day was one of those breakthrough days each of us have from time to time.

      I ran into a woman I like from the encampment I was banned. We chatted briefly and she said the whole ordeal sounded like a miscommunication. She said she would put out a behind the scenes investigation and gave me her card, told me to call her back.

      As I left, I had some interesting thoughts about conscious awareness. Seems last year, the 100th annniversay of Thelema, I was determined to prove so many of my close friends wrong, who said the OTO sucked, that I forgot to really look at why I would want to join the OTO. In fact the very thing I was trying to prove wrong hit me in the face, and I backed away, thinking "I guess they were right."

      I am not going to project whether things will turn around or I will get an initiation with the OTO or not.

      I think this moment of clarity, to see that I might have set myself up, (not intentionally) but then again, I had better be clear on my intentions in the future.

      We shall see. My mind has opened a bit. At least I am turning the handle to the door and starting to open it.

      I'm going to have to ponder and meditate on what the OTO might have to offer me.

      Klaatu Barada Nikto,
      Calling all conscious dreamers to gather at>>>
      First Earth Dreaming School
    • Re: Which OTO?

      Tue, December 26, 2006 - 3:26 AM
      93 Frater - you truly manifest the Current! Thabk you for your concise and to the point post. Saves ol' ADHD me the trouble!
    • Re: Which OTO?

      Sat, January 6, 2007 - 7:07 AM
      " Many “OTO’s” have come and gone over the years. "

      But the one with the Crowley Copyrights, and hence which sticks its logo onto every Crowley book published (Or rather, which uses Crowleys trademark as its own) - will last those with no comparable advertising.

      Particularly if the copyrights and names are vigorously protected in mundane courts.

      No surprise there. Budweiser pisswater is more popular than Budweiser Bodvar of Budweis; it has the logos, legal rights to the name; and a lawyer department which can sue the ass out of the competition. Doesnt mean its a better beer.
  • Orders are orders

    Wed, April 27, 2005 - 2:15 AM
    If an organization claims to be OTO, and they also perform Liber XV from the original form, then they are essentially carrying on the core of the tradition. In addition if there is a coherent system that in some way represents what Crowley outlined mainly in the Equinox (if you want the Caliphate condensed version Equinox III X will do), then there is a stronger bet that a particualr version may have some credence. First look at the Mass, and then look at the structure. And, as always you can judge an order—like an individual—by the works which they commit.

    We all tend to find exactly that sort of group that we most need to learn our lessons on the path. If perhaps we worried less about lineage, and more about the work then we would all be a lot further along as a movement, and as humanity in totality. I have waisted my time arguing over trivial matters such as these, and all it means is that you are not doing your work. Any of us can find truth through any path that we choose, as the only requirement is that we choose a path.
    • Re: Orders are orders

      Wed, April 27, 2005 - 10:04 AM
      93 Chad,

      This statement of yours has proven true for me:

      "Any of us can find truth through any path that we choose, as the only requirement is that we choose a path."

      It ultimately comes down to committment and follow through.

      93 93/93

      • Jim
        offline 2

        Re: Orders are orders

        Sat, May 7, 2005 - 8:57 PM
        93's Folks...

        I just joined this tribe and I figured I'd throw in my two cents for the hellavit.

        I picked this particular thread because the topic is soooooooooo rare and unique, and hardly ever discussed! (sarcasm dripping off of the page at this point.)

        I've been a member of THE OTO (COTO) for eight years. It's my experience that often those who bitch about how their OTO is 'the right one', 'the better one', or 'the one that has a better, enhanced and UFO-infused version of Liber Reguli', are generally people who:

        a) are pissed that they didn't get 9th Degree the same night they took Miverval

        b) are pissed that they didn't get elected as Caliph the same night they took Minerval


        c) simply feel that a Thelemic Magickal Order should be something other than what the COTO is.

        "c)" is, I feel where a lot of the confusion brews. There are indeed many paths that lead to one palace. It's just fine and dandy to put together a magickal group and do rituals and initiations, etc., etc., however just because said group does rituals, initiations* and so forth, does not mean that it is the OTO.

        *I am of the belief that, even though the mechanical actions of initiations can be duplicated, a particular magickal current is necessary in order to make said initiation effective with regard to its intent.

        Within human society, the accepted manner of proof of concurrence is the 'majority rule'. In other words, if the greater number of learned people agree upon a point, it is generally accepted that that point is what it has been deemed to be. Not only does this seem to make the point that the majority agree that the COTO is the one and only OTO, this opinion has been endorsed by the U.S. Supreme Court (1984 ruling). Therefore, most agree that the "COTO" does truthfully and honestly carry on the Germer lineage, as was given to him by Crowley.

        I do pause to consider the 'copyright issues' and find myself wondering if those who are 'anti-COTO' are more jealous of publishing royalties, than seeking points of Magickal Truth. Just a thought....

        Anyway, seek within yourself, for it is within the True Self that God is found - There is no God but Man - ! The END is what matters. How thou comes to that END will ultimately be your own choice!

        All else that needs to be sought may be found in Liber AL. It is The Law that prevails, not the dictums of another to lead one hither and yon...


        • Re: Orders are orders

          Sun, May 8, 2005 - 4:19 PM
          Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law,

          With all due respect, (I love you Jim). I think the "confusion" might be cleared up a bit by focusing upon what constitues a particular magickal current. The question is, how do you measure the amperage of this current and is it possible to reproduce it from a separate generator? The laws of physics seem to agree that this is permissible. Popular opinion seems to say otherwise. Who is right? "As brothers fight ye!"

          Love is the law, love under will.

          • Jim
            offline 2

            Re: Orders are orders

            Sun, May 8, 2005 - 5:43 PM

            Thank you Sno ( I love you too). You bring up very good points to ponder. I believe a current can be generated from any properly constructed generator.

            I think my remarks grew more out of the battles I have witnessed between groups who fight over who is "the one, true OTO". Yes, "As brothers fight ye". This is such a dicey subject! In my opinion, it's all too remiscent of the age old-arguments over AA lineage.

            I can staunchly state that COTO is the one and only Order, while someone else can state that their OTO is THE ONE. Ultimately, I believe that the only thing that matters is what the individual is getting out of it for themselves, as long as there is an earnest drive towards accomplishing the Great Work. I am one of these Kabbalists who believes that, in the end, everything below the Abyss winds up as arguing conflict, ending in confusion anyway.

            To the person who originally started this thread, I say:
            You have read opinions, hard fact as well as numerous differing views. Acquire knowledge and then seek within yourself for the answer that's right for you.

            93, 93/93

            • Re: Orders are orders

              Sat, January 6, 2007 - 8:00 AM
              "I can staunchly state that COTO is the one and only Order, while someone else can state that their OTO is THE ONE. Ultimately, I believe that the only thing that matters is what the individual is getting out of it for themselves, as long as there is an earnest drive towards accomplishing the Great Work."

              On THAT point we agree.

              But wouldnt it be nice; if the Bible wasnt copyrighted by one faction, and its issuance regulated by them? Its not about the money - its about the control over texts that belong to everyone. About who can use Crowleys seals and who is barred from it. Ultimately, its about the freedom to belong to the organization you best feel reflects your experience of the church. If one Church had patents on the image of the cross - wouldnt the rest be pissed?

              I'm slightly different - I'm not sure I want to belong to any; because I havent seen one free of the contamination of the ego yet. I left the Catholic Church (maybe thats too strong - I wandered off perhaps); because I was fed up of this kind of crap. So did Crowley. But if it werent for this authoritarianism emanating like Breeze, there would probably be a thousand different flavors around; one of which would resonate with me.

              Because of this one person; McOTO has lost the contributions of the many, and become Mc. Your Big mac comes with a 1/8" pickle, a quarter ounce of special sauce, a bun with precisely 34 sesame seeds on it - and no matter where you go, thats all you can eat. Unless you walk across town and eat a "meatburger", which of course isnt allowed to use lettuce in the bun - thats a trademarked "secret", as is the name "hamburger".

              To my mind:- Bill Breeze; if he wanted to develop his own OTO in accordance with HIS desires for obeisance - should have set up the "official breeze-OTO", and allowed the Crowley copyrights to remain free - as they were when he was a minerval. Instead, like Amazon, he has patented "one-click", but unlike Amazon, is suing the pants off anyone who dares use their mouse.
        • Re: Orders are orders

          Tue, December 26, 2006 - 3:29 AM
          I have wondered about the copyright thingos too. I would much rather support a Caliphate who puts out 'Cross Scholarship' Crowley books than mere reprints with someones intro tacked on. I think that also, many have no idea how much work and time goes into doing this and this is why they complain that not enough book a are printed.
          • Re: Orders are orders

            Sat, January 6, 2007 - 8:04 AM
            " I would much rather support a Caliphate who puts out 'Cross Scholarship' Crowley books than mere reprints with someones intro tacked on. "

            I would much rather support a caliphate who understood that they didnt write the material, and therefore have no control over who publishes it and how.

            Controlling the source code makes commercial sense, but open source products get the benefit of input from more than one person.
        • Re: Orders are orders

          Sat, January 6, 2007 - 7:46 AM
          "Within human society, the accepted manner of proof of concurrence is the 'majority rule'. In other words, if the greater number of learned people agree upon a point, it is generally accepted that that point is what it has been deemed to be. Not only does this seem to make the point that the majority agree that the COTO is the one and only OTO, this opinion has been endorsed by the U.S. Supreme Court (1984 ruling). Therefore, most agree that the "COTO" does truthfully and honestly carry on the Germer lineage, as was given to him by Crowley. "

          OK; I'll reply to this one, as you clearly dont get what the issue is for those not of your OTO.

          (1) Truth is not, and never has been, subject to majority opinion. Truth is truth, regardless of the number who voted for a chimpnazee, or supported his misadventures in the middle east (to give but one example). There is a saying that "the victors decide what history is" - which is somewhat close to what you are saying - and to some extent which I can agree with; but majority-accepted-history, is not Truth. Its majority-accepted-history. The number of people on the planet who think that Crowley was anything but an evil-minded, dirty-minded, egotistical jackass, is minute. Does that mean that Crowley is worthless?

          The supreme court decided the US presidency. Does that mean that George Bush legitimately won the election? The answer is exactly the same as its relevance to the OTO. Bush won the presidency legally fair and square. Legally. But that does NOT mean that he got the largest number of votes - even electoral votes. It means the courts decided in his favor. What did you expect? The US courts did NOT go over the history of the OTO, and decide between competing claims based on evidence and fact - It simply acknowledged that the Caliphate were the legal owners of the OTO name - because they had registered it in the US first.

          The supreme court made NO finding on the Authenticity of the COTO - nor on the disposition of Crowleys assets - beyond agreeing that Motta's arguments were crap as to his rights. This is the reason that the OTO PURCHASED the Crowley copyrights in the late 90's from the reciever - instead of simply asserting their rights. No court has stated that the caliphate is superior to any other OTO, in any other way than in its rights to use patents which it applied for first.

          The TRUTH has therefore NOT been decided by the courts; CAN not be decided by majority opinion, and IS decided by the facts of the case. If you want the COTO to be the MAGICAL LINK - you need to demonstrate more than the fact that youre the microsoft of the OTO world. You need to demonstrate (a) That Crowley gave it to Germer, and (b) That Germer passed it on to Murtry, and (c) that Murtry passed it to Breeze, in the manner decided according to the principles of the OTO. I have not seen that demonstrated; therefore, I dont accept that the COTO is the OTO, any more than I accept that any other OTO is THE OTO.

          The truth is that we have a bunch of squabbling groups, none of which has proper authority, but of which the american version has, like Coca Cola or Budweiser or MacDonalds, successfully sued itself to the top.

          (2) "...are generally people who: "

          None of this has ANY bearing (Soror Potnia please note); on the EFFECTUALNESS of ANY of these versions. The EFFECTIVENESS to the Breeze-OTO, (which I refer to as McOTO); may indeed be great. I am NOT saying that Breeze "cant give great mass" (to quote Father Ted); or that Breeze has perverted the texts; or that he is a mental midget, or any of the other things that McOTO members imagine the problem to be with non-conformists.

          The PROBLEM is that Breeze insists that the McOTO is the ONLY game in town; that his holiness is infallible in matters of church dogma and morals, and that no-one is allowed access to the purchased materials except by conforming to the kowtowing servile mass that the McOTO has become.

          If and when BIll Breeze announces to the world, the TRUTH: That his is only one COMPETING version of the OTO; that he is no more or less AUTHENTIC than Kenneth Grant or the rest; THEN the problem vanishes.

          THEN the playing field comes down to who "gives best mass".

          Anyone who does not understand this to be the basic gripe; is ignorant of the history of world religion. Great Schisms ONLY occur when at least ONE claimant INSISTS that it is THE ONLY VALID version - and that all others are meaningless. THATS WHY there are problems between protestants and catholics, but not between baptists and calvinists, lutherans and mormons. Its why the Sunnis are at the throats of the Shiites. Its why China and Taiwan are such bitter enemies.

          And as EVERY conflict shows; its not the victor that wins; People can rewrite history and pass laws all they like; but as long as the facts are available; there will remain conflict.

          As a final example; the Catholics thought they had buried most dissension by legally outlawing others; by torturing them; burning every copy of the texts (they thought); until finally the Catholic Church was the ONLY game in town. Bill Breezes wet dream for McOTO.
          MAJORITY OPINION had decided "the truth"

          But when the dead sea scrolls and the Nag Hammadi texts were discovered; a thousand years later; the Truth re-emerged, dusted itself off, and displayed the "truth" to be nothing more than a well-exectuted legal conspiracy. Note the word PIRACY contained within the word conspiracy - quite apt here (humor explained for Potniak).

          THATS where we are; and the sooner that Bill Breeze takes his desire for papal infallibility and sticks it; the OTO - the REAL OTO - will remain a fractured organization, with the US-legally-recognized entity being only one splinter - albeit a large, well-funded and popular one.

          The REAL OTO is to Mc OTO what Christianity is to the Catholic Church.

          Now imagine that the Catholic Church has the legal copyrights to the Bible and the Gospels, and you will finally understand what our PROBLEM is.

          Its not your effectiveness, your version of the rituals, or anything else of that nature.
        • Re: Orders are orders

          Sat, January 6, 2007 - 9:01 AM

          "In October 1921, Reuss to Spencer Lewis: "I have cut off the connection that existed between us [Reuss und Crowley] regarding O.T.O., and whatever Crowley would happen to do about in the USA, it is now his own business, and not anymore a concern for the O.T.O.""

          "Within human society, the accepted manner of proof of concurrence is the 'majority rule'. In other words, if the greater number of learned people agree upon a point, it is generally accepted that that point is what it has been deemed to be. Not only does this seem to make the point that the majority agree that the COTO is the one and only OTO......"

          "On March 14th 1942 Crowley wrote to Germer:"I shall appoint you my
          successor as O.H.O... a complete change in the structure of the Order,
          and in its methods is necessary."

          16 February 1943: Crowley to Wolfe: "it would not be unfair to say
          that they [Agape Lodge members] do not seem to be taking
          the Order seriously ... there is absolutely not work being done and
          no attempt to do any work."

          " In England Crowley, living in poverty was being sent money; Karl
          Germer, and Leota and Max Schneider (whom Jane Wolfe had lived with in 1927) were
          supporting his extravagances to the tune of at least $200 a month. On
          the other hand McMurtry wasn't so generous, demanding that Crowley pay
          him 20% interest on a loan of £50. Crowley was obliged to fend McMurtry
          off by describing him as a "fully paid-up member of the IX°" on
          April 11th 1945; later on June 17th 1947 he assigned McMurtry a 25% share in
          the profits of his book "Magick Without Tears"."

          "June 6th 1947, Crowley to Germer: "You are the only successor of
          whom I have ever thought"

          .......believed that
          the title "Caliph" was no more than one of Crowley's jokes, simply being a pun on
          the old postal abbreviation for California: 'Calif'. In all
          Crowley's and Germer's writings, no recognition of the term 'Caliphate'
          occurs, nor any explanation of the meaning of the title 'Caliph'. In a
          short note in a letter to McMurtry, Germer only states that all steps
          "have to be taken with my approval," but nowhere is there any
          clear declaration along the lines of 'you are now the Caliph'

          the Crowley expert Gerald Yorke thought that: <i>"Grady is the
          first person I know to call himself a Caliph and I cannot recollect
          A.C. making use of the term."

          Both Crowley and Germer had disapproved of
          their O.T.O. being incorporated as a church. "ITC" Vol. III Nº 4, p. 39

          25 May 1951: Germer to Grant: "In the first place, do not refer to
          me as your superior in the Order. That is only true in an
          extremely limited sense. What I appear to be in the O.T.O. has
          been thrust upon me, against my will. I will do what I can; but I
          shall refuse to make claims that go against my grain. I am
          strictly speaking the Grand Treasurer General of the O.T.O. No
          more, no less!"

          3 May 1952: Germer to Grant: "If we want to get the O.T.O.
          properly going again, we need a competent leader, not only for
          England but for the world ... I have often thought that you might
          well be chosen for the job ... There is no active Lodge, as such,
          in the U.S.A. of the O.T.O."

          In the summer of 1953 W.T. Smith and Louis Culling decided to legally
          incorporate the 'Church of Thelema', and to proclaim Smith as the OHO,
          using Crowley's Will of January 1st 1932 as their justification; Germer
          expelled both of them from the O.T.O.

          In 1955 Germer expelled Grant from the O.T.O.

          Behind Germer's back in 1959 McMurtry was holding meetings at the
          Leffingwell's house in Lakewood; [41] these happened in February,
          August, and on October 8th and 22nd. These members of the IX°
          discussed the future of their O.T.O., and especially who was to be OHO.
          Other IX°s outside this tiny cabal (Mellinger, Mott....They appear to have ignored the fact that
          there was nothing in any O.T.O. constitution (either Reussian or
          Crowleyan) about IX°s being entitled to vote for the OHO, a privilege
          exclusive to X°s. Nonetheless, there were other non-X°s present: the widowed Mrs.
          Schneider-Shivonen from Barstow, Aleister Ataturk MacAlpin, and Helen
          Smith and her lover Montenegro from Malibu. All of them spoke against
          McMurtry as OHO.

          AND MORE OF THE SAME....

          If you decide truth by plebescite, rather than facts, you end up with teaching creationism is schools, and banning evolution.
          • Unsu...

            Re: Orders are orders

            Wed, January 10, 2007 - 2:49 PM
            The reasoning behind the typhonian oto is that at the time of his death, the changes that crowley stipulated to the structure of the order were not being acted upon, so grant did so (abolition of dues, and admitting women to the higher degrees). At this point, existing members had to determine whether authenticity was based on legal charters, or implementing the current in the way the great beast had directed. And now the later generations of members are carrying on the same fight, but with much less insight into the original issues- Which makes for even more
            'clarity' than 30 years ago!! haha. As Sard puts it- is is now about 'majoirty rules'. Mob mentality will always be the downfall of mans enterprises. It is so very difficult to employ thelema (haha) to the making of your own choices- thats what the silly OHO's are for!!! They know your will better than you could, of course!. If i were running (yeah, right!) the order, i would not admit anyone that had not effectively completed their abramelin ritual. But of course there would'nt be enouph people left to argue then, huh?
            • Re: Orders are orders

              Sat, January 13, 2007 - 8:32 AM
              " If i were running (yeah, right!) the order, i would not admit anyone that had not effectively completed their abramelin ritual. But of course there would'nt be enouph people left to argue then, huh?"

              I would rather suspect there would not be a single one - not even Crowley.

              First; the work requires 18 months, the last 6 of which effectively removes you entirely from circulation.

              But most importantly from my point of view, is that you MUST dedicate yourself entirely to the worship of the Judeo-Christian deity during this time. One performance of Liber Resh will definitely disqualify you.

              Let alone using a pentagram.

              Abramelin is very clear on this.
        • Re: Orders are orders

          Wed, January 10, 2007 - 12:20 PM
          "Not only does this seem to make the point that the majority agree that the COTO is the one and only OTO, this opinion has been endorsed by the U.S. Supreme Court (1984 ruling). Therefore, most agree that the "COTO" does truthfully and honestly carry on the Germer lineage, as was given to him by Crowley. "

          In the most recent copyrights battle; COTO have legally determined that there IS NO GERMER LINEAGE.
          The copyrights that exist come solely through purchse from the official reciever.
          The COTO have declared, and had it officially recognized, that Crowley has NO INHERITANCE TO GIVE.

          Furthermore; you misinterpret the 1984 ruling;
          That stated that MOTTA did not have an exclusive right to the OTO name.
          That is all.
          • Unsu...

            Re: Orders are orders

            Wed, January 10, 2007 - 2:30 PM
            You do your homework well. The germer lineage issue is the point at which the oto took a big turn to the left. That is why i base the authenticity of any oto on their ability to earth the current 93. I am always surprised that there is little to no disscussion of the OTOA, whose bishops preserve more of the lineage than most. And Motta- well read his 'Equinox', and that should tell anyone what a frothing fool he was. And the legal battles came about mainly because of him- (a big 'sigh' and an 'eyeroll'). So i (personal opinion here folks) view as authentic any branch that can effectively employ the LaShTal formula in the outer, as well as the inner.
  • Re: Which OTO?

    Mon, May 16, 2005 - 8:17 AM
    the oakland OTO.
    • Unsu...

      Re: Which OTO?

      Tue, December 26, 2006 - 5:09 PM
      OTO (One True Order). when it comes to which is the deal, or as i would put it- which is truly the Motherhouse Of The Soverign Sanctuary Of The Gnosis- there is enouph back and forth on this, that or the other thing, who has copyright, who can speak, 'et al; etc. etc. It depends on what your understanding perceives to be authentic and true, and that is a grading system that can be relative at best. What do you think the order is here for? to teach unexperienced persons? to manifest an entity or current of magickal energy zone? to embody in the flesh, the formula of babalon and the beast conjoined? the raising of the veil during the chemical marriage? to come together as an incorporated public church? to deliver the word of the law to all beings? to let the world and the book be the standing evidence of the aeon?
      These and many more, are all very valid considerations when trying to 'find' and 'discover' where the Sovereign Sanctuary is located here in the outer, physical planes. So it depends on what you beleive and have been taught, and learned, about absolute manifestation on the earth plane of the highest embodiment of the Current 93. Might i suggest that the Soverign Sanctuary- Blessed Be Her Name- changes location and branches, as the seasons change, at times each order is more capable of opening the thelemic power zone than others, a yin and yang flux of polarities, all expressed thru the varying different manifestations of the Order Of The Knights Templar. For Truth to be known, our lady has to be acknowledged as being everywhere at all times, her continuity of existence, her eternal union allways and ongoing. Always for the chance of union. The One True Order cannot be pointed to- it can only be experienced on the levels of depth to which you are developed at this eternal moment- and with Will, can deepen into the True Knowledge Of The Soverign Sanctuary Of The Gnosis. AUM HA! *93*SALA MALECUN!
      • Re: Which OTO?

        Tue, December 26, 2006 - 8:57 PM
        Well said Travis, I could not have put it better.


        • Unsu...

          Re: Which OTO?

          Tue, December 26, 2006 - 10:12 PM
          See, Dian, i am not a complete butt-head, i just have that authority challenging complex going on! ha ha.
          • Re: Which OTO?

            Wed, December 27, 2006 - 7:31 AM
            I have always believed in challenging authority, that's what gets me in trouble all the time. If you can't take a little heat, you probably shouldn't be in a position of authority.


            • Re: Which OTO?

              Thu, December 28, 2006 - 12:48 PM
              Psych! Well trying to find a good authority or guru means one is a follower. Or shall I say SLAVE?

              All kidding aside, I think at the end of this old piscean Aeon we are still struggling with the whole group concept and sadly failing.
              Hopefully people will recognize their own inner artform, inner authority, and follow one's own true will and stop worrying about the perfect group. The old 2,000 year aeon proves it will never happen. Time to try something new.

              Zhombies rule!

              Blessed be 92
              • Re: Which OTO?

                Thu, December 28, 2006 - 5:42 PM
                I have often felt the writings of the movers and shakers of the many OTOs to be suggestions or stories of the road trip at best.
                I am often baffled by Thelemites that adhere to written work as dogma.
                We are not a breed that does well with the sheep as role model.
                Sunwolf has a handle on the path and the perfect group does not exist if it contains humans that think.
                • Re: Which OTO?

                  Sat, January 6, 2007 - 9:42 AM
                  thats why as my friend said at New year's. this is why the psytrance dance experience is the new high magick...

                  no sheep on the dancefloor, nothing but will and love
  • Re: Which OTO?

    Sat, January 6, 2007 - 1:47 PM
    In summary:

    "The OHO, as international O.T.O. chief is mentioned in the
    "OTO Statutes", "Liber LII", and "Liber CXCIV", and when not nominated in
    writing by his (or her) predecessor, must be elected unanimously by the
    vote of all the X°s in the world.

    This has never occurred since Reuss's death. Neither Crowley, nor
    Germer, Metzger, Grant, Motta or McMurtry were expressly appointed or
    unanimously elected; each was elected by their own followers alone."

    I think that about covers it.

    What used to be "do what thou wilt is 10/10 of the law"

    has been replaced by Breeze as "possession is 9/10 of the law"
    • Re: Which OTO?

      Sat, January 6, 2007 - 4:01 PM
      By the way; rereading all this stuff is such fun. In the 2002 ruling in the UK; the caliphate argued that the will of Crowley was useless, and all claims stemming from it are null and void. This was accepted by the Judge. Until Breeze purchased his rights to the Crowley material in 1991; he has now argued that he had no leg to claim the ownership of these at the time.

      All arguments of heritage are now over; Breeze has put the OTO on the legal footing that he has the rights to where he is because he paid for them. In cold, hard, mundane cash. Because Breeze says that Crowley didnt own his own works when he died. Breeze is prepared to disinherit the master of his own works, so that he can publish - or suppress - as he chooses.

      For example; the rituals are now being suppressed; I have even seen reported one case where someone was barred from selling a copy of Francis' king's book on Ebay. Even though you may own the book - you dont. Breeze does. Because 20 years after king; Breeze bought the (non-retroactive) rights. Go figure. Its quite ironic, because without King; Grady McOTO would not have had access to the rituals.

      In any case, anyone who is interested, i know where you can buy a copy of this banned book for less than $200. I dont think I can be sued for letting you know the name of a bookseller - yet.
      • Re: Which OTO?

        Sat, January 6, 2007 - 4:27 PM
        McOTO principles in action:

        "For hundreds of years, Quechua Indians have grown maca, the frost-resistant root that thrives in these frigid Andean highlands, to boost stamina and sex drive. The root, they believe, is nature's bounty and belongs to everyone and to no one in particular.

        Maca growers and indigenous organizations were outraged when, in 2001, a New Jersey-based company, PureWorld Botanicals, received a U.S. patent for exclusive commercial distribution of an extract of maca's active libido-enhancing compounds that it branded as MacaPure.

        Peruvian officials called the patent an "emblematic case" of biopiracy and are preparing to challenge it in U.S. courts.

        The maca dispute is just the latest collision between indigenous people and commercial interests over so-called biological prospecting, the growing practice of scouring the globe for exotic plants, microbes and other living things ripe for commercial exploitation."

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